I always find it interesting that people who do not believe in the exitence of God , are more obsess with proving this than most christians are in disproving them, it makes me think that maybe these people really don't that much faith in their own conclusions. For that matter why can't they get on with their lives and leave the rest of us alone. These people get very annoyed with having "GOD"shoved down their mouths, yet take great joy in shoving their lack of belief and respect down our throats. Waht really galls me is that while many christians are still sufferng death and torture for their beliefs , especially in Islamic countries, these people have nothing better to do than shit can people who have such strong beliefs that they are prepared for them, I would like to see some of these people lay their lives on the line if they were to be forced to, or would these lily livered bastards just turn tail and bow to whatever looking like saving their sniviling spinless hides.

zergimmi, as an ex-atheist who was like, I still think they're in the right. Believers who shoev it down atheist's throats are so much kore annoying than the atheists, so much more disrespectful. Most importantly they usually start it, and considering they're in the majority, it seems so annoying for them to whinge about being oppressed.

"Also, I wonder how wrong it is of me, a Catholic, to have a slight interest in this stuff. I mean, it's not shaking my faith whatsoever, let me be clear on that. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't pique my curiosity. It all sounds so dramatic...whether it's true or not."

Catholics really love to feel guilty don't they!

would like to see some of these people lay their lives on the line if they were to be forced to, or would these lily livered bastards just turn tail and bow to whatever looking like saving their sniviling spinless hides.

Reading this I was a bit bewildered by the ferocity of the writer. Hardly an eloquent expression of Christian love and kindness (if that is what he is defending). Then I came across these words of wisdom which I thought I would like to share:

For a long time now I have been an avid reader of JOEUSER, to the point that I would consider it to be my No: 1 favourite Blogging site, however some where along the line the high quality of debate has gone and been replaced by very narrow, unintelligent name calling... Diversity is what makes this site what it is, so debate all you like but do it an intelligent level , and put some interest back in the debate... Please can we raise the bar, a lot...

Link

Firstly Champas even the most meek reach the end of their fuse, Yes I may be having a bad week, and am letting fly a bit mote than I would, usually, and yes I do find having religon shoved down my throat annoying. However I am tired of people who continually find a need to tear apart peoples beliefs just because they themselvs do not believe. I find it in many cases to be patronising in the extrem, in many cases, even when it comes from those who I genarally would respect for their views.

As for my ferocity, yeah maybe I am a bit over the top with my blog, however I do find the killing of people for their beliefs to be very disturbing, maybe not quite the tack to take against the above protagionists. As for debate reaching an all time low, probably I should take a bex and have a good lie down.
I to regard JU as my favourite site, but sometimes I do tend to let thinghs build up, and sadly today was one of those days when I have had enough, next time I'LL take a deep breath , then let go.
Having said this I still do get steamed up by the constant need to have to rip apart peoples beliefs, I should add I am the first to say I enjoy a robust debate with the likes of the annoying door to door evanglists, mainly as I do not see them as having much more respect for peoples beliefs than those who take great delight in contiually attacking peoples beliefs, in this case I refer o the generally silent majority.

As for diversity I have no issue with this and would generally be the first to accept all people's right to believe what ever they wish to, including not to believe as the case may be. In fact I am the first to admit that I enjoy a good debate with many of my friends about my own faith or anyone elses for that matter, and do not feel tht degrading people to be embracing debate.
Debate is to be open to thought and learning and to learn from lessons from differing views, I often fall into quite robust debate regarding just what level of teaching the church delievers to christians, and just what we can learn from teachings of other faiths, yet I still show respect to these peoples beliefs.

So to all I am sorry for my rather over the top broadside tonight, and in future will try not to get so emotional about things , especially when I have had a bad day, or week as this one has been.

Can I finish on a more sobering thought, many christians are being killed, tortured and Imprisioned every day in many countries, this is not to forget the plight of many others suffering the same fate for their beiliefs, should they be political or pertaining to their faith. This is an issue we should all be aware of and be prepared to speak out about, for we can not consider our selves to be truely civilised until we can all be tolerant of each other right to believe what we want and vote for whom we wish, only then can we as a people truely claim to be civilised, technology and money do not indicate a level of civilisation, rather te value we put on the lives of our fellow men and women, when this is equal to that which we bestow on ourselves, and yes this starts with my own actions, including my rather over the top broadside tonight.

Sorry to go onI did rather miss the original theme of the blog as well, after a good cup of tea, I'll come back with a much calmer response.

Actually on the subject at hand, from what I can gather the upcoming Judas Gospel programme is about the discovery of a copy of an early(ish) version of the gospel in which Judas was apparently asked by Jesus to "sacrifice the man that clothes me" i.e. help to bring his death about. The work seems to be a gnostic writing, one of many produced at a time when the gnostics were in theological dispute with christian orthodoxy.

There were a large number of versions of the gospel floating around in the early centuries of the Christian church, before the four canonical gospels were finally decided upon by early church councils. The Gospel of Judas was known to the early Church Fathers: Iraneus of Lyon denounced it as heretical as early as 180 AD.

But I sure feel like I'm being inundated with "shocking discoveries" and "secrets" left and right....

I think this is the point. I tend to see this though as tv sensationalism (infotainment), rather than as a part of any wave of anti-christian propaganda. Next week, they'll probably move onto UFOs or 'Love Lives of the Rich and Famous'...

Who knows though; maybe the programme will be a sterling example of first rate scholarship - it is after all from National Geographic. Difficult to judge without seeing it.

Actually many of the recent docos from Nat Geo have been very interesting in relation to the "missing" gospels, many of which were excluded by the by early church councils, as you said Chakgogka, Many of which have still been retained by the teachings of the Coptics, not to mention turning up in many of the teachings of Islam. I find it interesting to be able to now have the ability to read sometimes contradictory gospels, which we are now able to study, as many give a better idea of just how different disiples viewed the teaching of christ and many of his followers. I am finding that I am getting more info from many of the Coptic teachings and their expanded use of the gospels, than the much mor enarrow view /s I have been taught in the past by the Catholic and other Orthodox Churchs. I do believe that all teachings should be discussed by the layety as much as the Minstry, as we are all part of the rich tapestry we call the faiths of the Abrahamic faiths.
I have found that I have learnt much ore about the life of Christ when he was a boy and that of his Mother Mary, and her family too from the ISlamic teachings and the Coptic teaching, not to mention the gospels that were excluded from the mainstream up until, now. Whether this has any bearing on the mny streams of Faiths which worship GOD, is another discussion all together.

InBloom, I am also a Catholic, but I do not believe that I am doing any thing wrong by looking outside the ridgidity of the current teachings of the church, after all There is a vast difference between Christ's teachings and those we have been deemed to be able to learn from, in accordance with the design of our fore fathers some 16 or 17 centuries ago.

And yes I have calmed down now, Guys. I would have to say this is more like the real me than the cranky bastard in the first little barrage above, again my most humlest apoligies, and warmest regards to you all.

I had just come out of a particullarly bad week, and ahd just finished arguing with my father in law, who is very narow minded about religion, to the point that he had just finished telling me I would burn in hell and so would my wife/his daughter aand so would my kids as we are all catholic. He really knows how to get me upset.

I suppose the irony of all the above is he is one of those people who relish shoving his religious views down the throats of othrs, and yes these were some of the people I was defending in my first comment, just goes to show, tke a deep breath before one go for the jugular.
I am really going now really, really.......................

I am finding that I am getting more info from many of the Coptic teachings and their expanded use of the gospels

For me, one of the more interesting beliefs of the Coptic and Ethiopian churches is that Pontius Pilate was converted to Christianity. In fact, in both of these churches he is venerated as a saint.

I wasn't aware of this Chakgogka, but wonders never cease to amaze me. It is also interesting that many of the Catholic Saint did much of their theological training in the Coptic Universities of the time, as these were and still are some of the greatest seats of Christian and Abrahamic Learning.

I am finding one of the great things about the openess of the net and other recent improvements in global communication, is that all people can now access learning that was confined to a small group that was aware of, or living in close proximity to where this knowledge was stored.

One of the greatest teachers I had when I was at school was an old Irish Nun, who was always telling me that there was a lot more out there than what the local priest would tell us, she was great at delineating what was fact and what was fiction, re; church fiction to get bums on seats. I am lucky to have had some very enlightened teachers when I was young, many of whom taught me to look through much of what I was taught and to always recoginise that there was much more to learn than we were led to believe.

For me, one of the more interesting beliefs of the Coptic and Ethiopian churches is that Pontius Pilate was converted to Christianity. In fact, in both of these churches he is venerated as a saint.

None of this makes me any less committed to my faith.  For the reality is that there would be no salvation without a Judas and Pilate.  Where they secret saints?  I dont know.  But I do know that is Jesus had not died on the cross, we would still be wearing prayer caps and forgoing pork.

But the ice thing is kind of funny.  Ever tried to balance on a floating object standing up?

Nor should it Dr Guy, I just find it interesting to be able to read a lot more abot what we believe, if anything I find my faith is stronger now than ever before, probaly less reliant on the religiousity and more the spritual.

As for the ice thing, when you look it , it is very funny.

DrG

But the ice thing is kind of funny. Ever tried to balance on a floating object standing up?

I know there is some serious discussion here, but I couldn't help but laugh at this one.

~~~"Also, I wonder how wrong it is of me, a Catholic, to have a slight interest in this stuff. I mean, it's not shaking my faith whatsoever, let me be clear on that. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't pique my curiosity. It all sounds so dramatic...whether it's true or not."

Catholics really love to feel guilty don't they!~~~

Well, I can't speak for all Catholics, but yes, I fully confess to having episodes of guilt.

Baigent isn't much to take seriously, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" was an amusing read and that was about it. He's been trying to get a bit of Dan Brown's spotlight ever since that awful "Da Vinci Code" book got so popular.

To me, the interesting thing is that many people of various faiths are interested in this sort of thing, almost as if they suspect that the scriptures that they've been given aren't quite complete. Which, of course, they aren't, and you have the early Catholic church to thank for it.

As for your rant, zergimmi, any atheist worth his/her salt will tell you that since one can't prove a negative, one can't "disprove" god. What we can do, however, is use existing evidence in the world around us to come up with ideas about how likely it is that god, as he is presented by the religions of the world, exists. Therefore, for me, it's more of a case of "judging by existing evidence, I find it highly unlikely that there is a god, and until such evidence presents itself proving the existence of a supreme being, I remain skeptical."

I'll leave it there, and avoid your other line of attack, the "who is persecuting whom" line, because even if it were possible to make an all-inclusive list of which groups have persecuted others, then none of us, Christians, Muslims, Zoroarastrians, atheists, Hindus, or Scientologists are going to be completely innocent.

All of this does serve to point out one great difference between science-minded folks and the religious. Religious folks maintain (just as several of you did), that even if new evidence is presented that shows your existing beliefs to be in error (or at least not complete), then that doesn't matter because you've already made of your mind. Science, on the other hand, is forced to change when new evidence arises (evidence that can be tested repeatedly and independently). Of course, not every scientist will be perfect in doing this, they are, after all, human, and still possessed of a stubborn pride. But look at the recent scandal involving South Korean stem cell research -- a false prophet of science lasted only scant months before being shot down, whereas the false religions of the West have lasted for the better part of six millenia.

Cheers.